Appropriate at the new Wembley that ...

[andy]

... the first 'legend' onto the pitch is a former Worcester City player.

May there be many more in the future!

[Tim Munslow]

Wasn't watching; who was that?

[Deleted]

Was it Christian Moore being used as a heavy roller?

[andy]

Peter McParland was the first of the series of FA Cup legends, many of whom were insulted by the brain-dead Premiership fans of today. It was embarassing.

Oh, x,y,z played for Liverpool 30 years ago, so the fans must hate and boo him, even though any single one of those legends had more character and spirit in their little finger than those 22 numpties who played on Saturday put together.

[Deleted]

Good to hear Peter McP was there. How did he look? Not a favourite of Man Utd fans that's for sure.

[B*ue dragonstander]

Laps of honour have disappeared.

Didnt the losers trot round and get applauded by both sets of fans before slinking away to leave the stage for the winners before they too went round the whole stadium and received the respect they deserved from the losers fans?

Today it seems to be my team lost therefore we go cos we cant applaud a team who were good enough to beat our own (and by definition must be quite handy!). Also Man U fans (and they are not alone) didnt stay to applaud their own teams not inconsiderable effort and performance.

[Deleted]

It happened at Notts Forest on Friday. By a few admittedly, but a good gesture.

[jp]

andy said:

Peter McParland was the first of the series of FA Cup legends, many of whom were insulted by the brain-dead Premiership fans of today. It was embarassing.

Oh, x,y,z played for Liverpool 30 years ago, so the fans must hate and boo him, even though any single one of those legends had more character and spirit in their little finger than those 22 numpties who played on Saturday put together.

Yes I thought that was one of the most disgraceful episodes I've seen. Booing great footballers from the past just because they might have played for a former rival team many many years ago - are they just thick?? Yes!!!
However, andy, by referring to the present players in the Cup Final as numpties, you show a similar level of ignorance. How you can call players like Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Gary Neville and John Terry numpties, when, in this age of big transfers and no loyalty, they have committed their football careers to one club is crazy. One of those "legends" certainly displayed an amazing level of numptiness himself, when refering to the handicapped as sinners in past lives!!!

[voiceofreason]

jp said:

Yes I thought that was one of the most disgraceful episodes I've seen. Booing great footballers from the past just because they might have played for a former rival team many many years ago - are they just thick?? Yes!!!
However, andy, by referring to the present players in the Cup Final as numpties, you show a similar level of ignorance. How you can call players like Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Gary Neville and John Terry numpties, when, in this age of big transfers and no loyalty, they have committed their football careers to one club is crazy. One of those "legends" certainly displayed an amazing level of numptiness himself, when refering to the handicapped as sinners in past lives!!!

Numpties No, Tossers Yes! No sympathy for any modern day footballers......Those 50 & over deserve our respect though!

[jp]

I don't think any of them are looking for any sympathy either. I'm not sure that I can hold a great deal of respect for fraudsters such as Venables really. Jimmy Greaves didnt do a great deal to earn respect as he'll be the first to tell you (he'll also tell you how disgusting hair lacquer is to drink, but when you're an alcoholic!!!!!!)

[andy]

All players who have stayed at their respective Clubs because of the huge money they get paid. But each of them incapable or unwilling to deliver outside of their Club eg on the international stage.

Take the money that comes in from the "star status" that they are afforded by sycophantic TV, and the big European tournaments, because it is only the income to the Club that pays them 100K+ a week or whatever it is.

A cup final with zero passion because the odd hundred thousand they won from it means barely a jot to any of them.

[jp]

And you blame the players for the wages? If, and its a huge if, you were in their position, would you seriously play the martyr??

To become a professional footballer is one of the hardest things in life to do, for every one player who earns £100k a week, there will be 100 who earn £100 a week, and 10,000 who earn nothing.

For every one of those that you appear to despise so much there is a Chris Cornes, a George Clegg, a Justin Thompson. And for every wealthy retired footballer there are plenty of Jock Morrisons struggling to get used to life on the dole!
The difference between your acceptance of "jobbing" hard working guys like Des Lyttle and Andy Preece, and the numpties you despise was about 5 years!!!
And at the end of the day, in the scheme of sports earnings, these guys don't rate with the Tennis Players, Baseball, Ice hockey, NFL, golf, motor racing. Personally I do not begrudge any footballer who decides to take a job that safeguards his family's future after a few years at the top. The sacrifices are no different to any other sport, the opportunities are few, and the odds are very long, and the risk to health very high. If either Andy Awford or Mark Shail had made the big money transfers instead of breaking their legs, would you have felt the same about them and despised them their newfound lifetime wealth?
Interesting that you say that the final lacked passion because the £100k they'd get means nothing to them, so you can't accuse them of being money motivated!!!!

[andy]

That is a certain 'not if', by all reasonable meaures (and I'll give you the unreasonable ones as well!) !!!!

[andy]

Careful you dont get dizzy star-gazing.

[jp]

I always get the feeling that when people criticise footballers for the money they earn today, it is with a little help from the little green eyed monster. Its easy to say that they do what they do without passion, but hey welcome to the world of professional sport in the 21st century.

Club versus country is present in many sports not only football, rugby is suffering in the same way as players start thinking (with a little assistance from their employers) "why should I risk my career playing for my country?", the Ryder Cup shows just how little American Pride there is in the world of golf, Davis Cup teams are unrecognisable at times in tennis.

[andy]

Alternately, its the arguments that are invoked to justify the money they earn that turn people green.

Must admit, jp, you lost me with a couple of your arguments.

"You wouldnt begrudge any footballer who decides to take a job that safeguards his family's future after a few years at the top". What is the average house price in the UK, and do a Premiership player's family get charged more in Morrisons than anyone else for a pint of milk? Are 35 year-olds prevented from getting a job in this country, and isnt the retirement age about 65?

As for "the risks to health are very high". Who has ever died when the direct cause has been playing a game of football? I'm sure I could arrange a visit for you to the Fire Brigade or the Parachute Regiment if you'd like to speak to some people there. Am sure they would show you their pay checks as well.

No 'green-eyed little monster' jealousy from me. And if you want to talk a bit more about safeguarding a family's future and risks to health, I'm off to Tanzania soon. Perhaps you'd like to come along and while you're there talk to a number of Tanzanians who pay subscriptions to watch football, with the only TV game on view is some dross like a repeat of Oldham v Rochdale from 2004. But guess what - who gets a cut of their money? We could go via South Africa and listen to the usual debate as to why the national game in a country about to host the World Cup is in such a poor state - usually a post-game debate after they've transmitted the full Oldham v Rochdale game from 2004 and flashed up the results of the local games.

[B*ue dragonstander]

I think it all comes down to character not money

Some players - Carragher, Lampard, Giggs, - would earn respect in any era for their attitude, respect for the game and others, ability, effort and loyalty. Other players would not.

You cannot con the fans that you are a 100% er for long if you are not.

I think there are some rather bewitched memories of England's gloriously successful international football past. It has been hard for us at International level since 1945 and possibly even before that (we were isolated from large parts of the football world for a long time pre- war) . Look at our first World Cup in 1950? Some of the "greatest" players in English football history humbled by the mighty USA. In the best part of 80 years we have won the World Cup once and never won the European Championship. I think we have to get real and recognise that it is not the money that kills England it is England's football structure.

We have all the money in the world for football it's just that as a nation we have no vision and no plan on how to convert all our great qualities into results on the pitch. Instead we would rather spend £700M+ on building a stadium who'se sole purpose appears to be to deliver a mechanism for getting the FA into the Guinness Book of Records for selling the most expensive hot dog in the history of professional sport (£4)! (actually they are a fiver at Twickers but at least the dog is real meat!)

[tim]

A mate of mine's brother is a Premiership footballer. He's in his early 30s, and has been a pro for 14 seasons, way longer than the average career, but it's only in the last couple of seasons that he has made any good money out of the game. Before that he was earning not a lot more than I earn. It's been all he's done since his teens, he didn’t pursue education once given a football apprenticeship, and as such has pretty much zero in the way of marketable skills outside the world of football. Unless he retrains soon (and his playing career is coming towards its natural end, certainly at the current level) he will be forced to find employment in the football world, coaching or TV/media punditry, an even narrower job market than playing. He’s got two small kids and a large mortgage. I don’t begrudge him his current salary, as it could well get very difficult for him in the next few years. Even though they are in the same league, the likes of Lampard get more in a month than he gets in a season. He’ll never be paraded as a legend at Wembley, he’s not an international and never will be. Luckily he’s got his head screwed on and has been building his pension for some time, as for all the big money in the game at the moment, those who aren’t at the very pinnacle are pretty soon forgotten, and it can be hard. I did have some sympathy for Jock Morrison, at least in terms of having known nothing but the pro football game and struggling to adapt, and in having no financial knowledge, though the benefit fraud and subsequent conduct issues did rather erode that sympathy.

[andy]

I agree, Tim, that its at a cost to a lifetime career when football apprenticeships are at the expense of any other training. Ex-footballers going into the football world only pus more fuel into the engine that drives the industry further.

My particular grief isnt against the players as individuals - its the system of British football. JP used the words 'despised' into my 'online mouth', and I never did. French football has long shown itself to be better than english football without a fraction of the TV money. But someone (about 5-10 years ago) decided the English league was going to become a 'world players league' bolted onto a few established English Clubs, and that the UK punter and the worldwide TV audiences would be prepared to pay for it. In fact, I'm surprised so many english players manage to get selected in those teams - suggests that some Chairmen are at least trying to retain a semblance of english in the english game. An important part of their marketing strategy, without which it surely would not last.

[tim]

And therein is the reason everyone hates the Arsenal

[Deleted]

"Those 50 & over deserve our respect though!"

Well said VOR.

[jp]

andy said:

Alternately, its the arguments that are invoked to justify the money they earn that turn people green.

Must admit, jp, you lost me with a couple of your arguments.

"You wouldnt begrudge any footballer who decides to take a job that safeguards his family's future after a few years at the top". What is the average house price in the UK, and do a Premiership player's family get charged more in Morrisons than anyone else for a pint of milk? Are 35 year-olds prevented from getting a job in this country, and isnt the retirement age about 65?

As for "the risks to health are very high". Who has ever died when the direct cause has been playing a game of football? I'm sure I could arrange a visit for you to the Fire Brigade or the Parachute Regiment if you'd like to speak to some people there. Am sure they would show you their pay checks as well.

No 'green-eyed little monster' jealousy from me. And if you want to talk a bit more about safeguarding a family's future and risks to health, I'm off to Tanzania soon. Perhaps you'd like to come along and while you're there talk to a number of Tanzanians who pay subscriptions to watch football, with the only TV game on view is some dross like a repeat of Oldham v Rochdale from 2004. But guess what - who gets a cut of their money? We could go via South Africa and listen to the usual debate as to why the national game in a country about to host the World Cup is in such a poor state - usually a post-game debate after they've transmitted the full Oldham v Rochdale game from 2004 and flashed up the results of the local games.

Fair enough andy, but don't blame the players for Tanzanians bad lot!!! Interesting that they choose to pay subscriptions to watch football, I cannot fritter away my money on such luxuries as TV subscriptions.
Unfortunately average house price and shopping at Morrisons is about as good as it gets for the vast majority of professional footballers. And do we actually strive to be "average?"
And footballers risk their health far more than you or I ever would, I'm sure Dave Busst could show you a few pictures of his leg facing the wrong way. And again, do you really begrudge footballers and their professional bodies for doing whatever they can to ensure that those who don't make it in the game due to injury do not end up the way of older players with little money, no pension and selling medals!!
Are there no jobs for the over 35's? well consider this - most footballer don't manage to still be playing at 35, and if they do, its at Worcester City or somewhere like. Most have spent their whole lives often from the age of 12 or below playing football, most have no qualifications whatsoever. Take a look at Morrison, PFA handout which has gone towards paying for operations, on Income Support for a time, so what are his prospects for the rest of his working life? Some kind of job in football?
To be honest, 90%+ of professional footballers will end their careers in a similar position as Paul Carty as a PE teacher, or Darren Bullock doing a window cleaning round.

[jp]

tim said:

A mate of mine's brother is a Premiership footballer. He's in his early 30s, and has been a pro for 14 seasons, way longer than the average career, but it's only in the last couple of seasons that he has made any good money out of the game. Before that he was earning not a lot more than I earn. It's been all he's done since his teens, he didn’t pursue education once given a football apprenticeship, and as such has pretty much zero in the way of marketable skills outside the world of football. Unless he retrains soon (and his playing career is coming towards its natural end, certainly at the current level) he will be forced to find employment in the football world, coaching or TV/media punditry, an even narrower job market than playing. He’s got two small kids and a large mortgage. I don’t begrudge him his current salary, as it could well get very difficult for him in the next few years. Even though they are in the same league, the likes of Lampard get more in a month than he gets in a season. He’ll never be paraded as a legend at Wembley, he’s not an international and never will be. Luckily he’s got his head screwed on and has been building his pension for some time, as for all the big money in the game at the moment, those who aren’t at the very pinnacle are pretty soon forgotten, and it can be hard. I did have some sympathy for Jock Morrison, at least in terms of having known nothing but the pro football game and struggling to adapt, and in having no financial knowledge, though the benefit fraud and subsequent conduct issues did rather erode that sympathy.

Well said Tim, your mates brother is representative of the majority, and if he were to play at Wembley I doubt whether you'd consider him a "numpty" to quote andy's word.

[andy]

I'm happy with my comment that those 22 players at Wembley on Saturday showed very little in character and spirit. Playing at a new Wembley in front of a worldwide audience seemed to mean nothing to them. The FA Cup has little prestiege in its final stages. Its just another fixture and venue for Clubs whose prime market position all but guarantees their players get to play in such matches. No character, no spirit. No sense of occasion. 90 minutes of dire football. Numpties in my book.

[jp]

I actually have great admiration for anyone who dedicates themselves 100% to something that they are good at, and want to make a living out of, knowing that to do so means a huge sacrifice for many long years. Didier Drogba left his family in Ivory Coast to live with a relative that he didn't know in France in order to put everything into being a professional footballer, and his sheer belief as well as his ability got him to the top of the game. I admire that in the same way as I admire Ian Woosnam living in a VW camper for years trying to get onto the golf tours, or Vijay Singh working as a bouncer in glasgow to fund his golfing dreams. I admire it as i personally wouldn't have the guts to stick it out. None of the "numpties" playing on Saturday were born with silver spoons in their mouths, none of them, regardless of their ability were guaranteed any kind of success, they've got where they are through hard work, dedication and sacrifice.
Sorry but going back to the original comments, the "numpties" were in the crowd on Saturday.

[andy]

I also admire people who dedicate themselves 100% to something. Which happens to be the majority of people. Just 'cos someone attracts a wadful when they get there doesnt lead me to grant them any greater respect. Failure to perform on a big stage and still taking a big salary gets my goat.

Most Ivoriens in France in the 1980s would have been sweeping the streets. An uncle playing as a professional footballer in France would be a significant advantage to any aspiring footballer with ability.

[DrAgony]

Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch

[Tim Munslow]

I have to defend players ridiculous wages to those who I mix with socially who know nothing about football - but think they do. I always ask them how they'd like a career that lasts ten years if you're lucky, less if you get a bad injury, with short-term contracts often dependent purely on a manager's say so. I also usually cite the example of one of my pools customers (yes, I was a pools collector a long time ago before the advent of the National Lottery) who used to play for WBA and ended up in a wheelchair because both his knees had gone. The highly paid prima donnas we all like to despise form, I would suggest, no more than 2½% of the footballing workforce.

[jp]

andy said:

I'm happy with my comment that those 22 players at Wembley on Saturday showed very little in character and spirit. Playing at a new Wembley in front of a worldwide audience seemed to mean nothing to them. The FA Cup has little prestiege in its final stages. Its just another fixture and venue for Clubs whose prime market position all but guarantees their players get to play in such matches. No character, no spirit. No sense of occasion. 90 minutes of dire football. Numpties in my book.

Ah right you want to be entertained? Sense of occasion? there is no sense of occasion, next year you only have to be a semi-finalist to get to Wembley. Yes the days of Bob Stokoe or Snozzer Sillett dancing up the touchline are long gone, but hang on, these Premiership players havent become numpties in the last 12 months, and last years Cup Final was a pretty good game! So it was an off day, s*** happens.
The 22 players on saturday, like it or not, are not employed to show character and spirit, they're employed to win matches, and if Worcester City had somehow fluked their way to Wembley on Saturday, by god I'd have been over the moon if we'd parked the bus in front of the goal and won a penalty shoot out.

[voiceofreason]

Yeah but the footballers of WCFC & their ilk are real people;Most PL players IMO are self-indulgent pr*cks of the highest order.

Though I do respect David James & those PL squads/players who gave £ to the 'Mayday' Fair Pay for Nurses campaign recently........but most of the players on sdaturday I have no time time for & would be no loss to the game, as as people or participants!