Was it a sending off?

[canalender]

www.blip.tv/file/3038277
About 5 mins 18secs
There was contact but was it a sending off offence?

[StopfordianWCFC]

No - IMHO!

There was contact but I couldn't say with any conviction whether it was deliberate or not. Certainly there appears to be nothing to 'provoke' a deliberate barge and clearly there was no 'elbow' involved - which is what the Newport player suggests to the ref. Rather telllingly one of their supporters whose judgement always appears to me to be very fair, has highlighted the fact that the player goes down after the initial shoulder to shopulder contact and once on the floor starts mysteriously holding his head. This does indeed appear to be the case - has Shab been done up like a kipper by a welsh thespian?

From the video evidence the officials don't seem to have a clue what had happened and I suspect that ultimately it was a case of the age old problem of a home / top side taking advantage of poor refereeing to the disadvantage of a smaller / lower side. It happens all the time. Football is rarely fair.

[StopfordianWCFC]

Jan 2, 2010 17:17:18 GMT StopfordianWCFC said:

No - IMHO!

There was contact but I couldn't say with any conviction whether it was deliberate or not. Certainly there appears to be nothing to 'provoke' a deliberate barge and clearly there was no 'elbow' involved - which is what the Newport player suggests to the ref. Rather telllingly one of their supporters whose judgement always appears to me to be very fair, has highlighted the fact that the player goes down after the initial shoulder to shopulder contact and once on the floor starts mysteriously holding his head. This does indeed appear to be the case - has Shab been done up like a kipper by a welsh thespian?

From the video evidence the officials don't seem to have a clue what had happened and I suspect that ultimately it was a case of the age old problem of a home / top side taking advantage of poor refereeing to the disadvantage of a smaller / lower side. It happens all the time. Football is rarely fair.

In fact having watched this again (and again) there is a case that Morgan clearly sees Shab running towards him, but rather than step out of the way, he squares himself up, takes a hit and goes down like the proverbial sack of spuds.

A really unfortuante 'Premiership' style incident. Just what I watch Non-League football to try to avoid.

[Deleted]

Yes, sending off, it says so in the Worcester News.

Manc, if you cant say with any conviction whether contact was deliberate or not, how can you say it wasnt a sending off? But you're right it happens all the time, I've seen plenty sent off at SGL with a little help from the Brookside!!

[LeedsWCFC]

The Worcester News also says Rob Davies was booked but he wasn't.

[niels]

It was clearly cheating, as I thought at the time. Shabby stopped Morgan playing and by duping the clueless ref and linesman he has won the game for Newport.

But at least we have the video evidence to get the decision overturned.

[Deleted]

Jan 2, 2010 20:47:06 GMT LeedsWCFC said:

The Worcester News also says Rob Davies was booked but he wasn't.

Right, so City ended the game with 11 men? Whats all the fuss about?

[niels]

So I guess your new year's resolution wasn't "I'll only speak/write when I have something worthwhile to say" then?

[LeedsWCFC]

Jan 2, 2010 22:20:41 GMT Down The Pan said:

Jan 2, 2010 20:47:06 GMT LeedsWCFC said:

The Worcester News also says Rob Davies was booked but he wasn't.

Right, so City ended the game with 11 men? Whats all the fuss about?

Er, no they didn't.

[Tony is not to despondent now.]

Jan 2, 2010 22:20:41 GMT Down The Pan said:

Jan 2, 2010 20:47:06 GMT LeedsWCFC said:

The Worcester News also says Rob Davies was booked but he wasn't.

Right, so City ended the game with 11 men? Whats all the fuss about?

Then why couldn't the City take advantage of having 12 men on the field before the dismisal?

[DrAgony]

The video shows, beyond doubt, that the Newport player was 'looking for it' - at very worst it was 50/50 and a yellow to each player. It was one among many appalling decisions by the officials who, yet again this season, have ruined a decent game.

The video evidence should get the red card rescinded if there is any justice. Is there a mechanism at our level to use it?

But the points are gone for good, though - apart from their no. 7 - I don't begrudge them to Newport. The afternoon, non-segregated, was a decent advert for non-league football. Just a shame the theme tune was 'Three Blind Men'.

[Deleted]

Blimey, I've just watched it, thats a sending off, it's a cheap shot. Pretty poor really.

I'm also trying to figure out how Dryden thinks the goal was offside!!

[DazaB]

Jan 2, 2010 20:04:39 GMT Down The Pan said:

Yes, sending off, it says so in the Worcester News.

and the News of the World.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2010 13:54:25 GMT DazaB said:

Jan 2, 2010 20:04:39 GMT Down The Pan said:

Yes, sending off, it says so in the Worcester News.

and the News of the World.

And in the refs report, and in the match report sent into the Conference. End of!

[niels]

Jan 3, 2010 13:22:29 GMT Down The Pan said:

Blimey, I've just watched it, thats a sending off, it's a cheap shot. Pretty poor really.

What does that mean? Do you agree with the sending off or do you disagree?

[Deleted]

I think the words "thats a sending off" mean I agree with it. You can get away with that kind of cheapshot running into a player when the actions 50 yards away, but not with the ref and the lino right on top of you.
Shabir needs to get a bit smarter, have a chat with Carl, he'll teach him when you can get away with those and when you can't.

[oxford]

Didn't see what had happened at the time as we were standing on the opposite terrace.After seeing the video it probably was worthy of a red card.The bit that I thought was most infuriating was the way the guy was dying up until the card came out & then he was miraculously cured!!Should be used to that type of thing by now ,as everyone does it, but it still niggles me!

[b1ewin-white]

So the video evidence has been submitted as part of the appeal against the sending off.

Trying to think of any precedent that might suggest the club has a chance of getting the decision overturned.

Wondering how many decisions have been reversed in the past as a result of video presentation. Mind is a a complete blank!

Have studied the video 30 times and tried to make an impartial judgement on the incident, as if part of a panel.

Which was the guilty party?

The Newport winger collects the ball from a throw-in inside his own half, shows excellent ball control skills and crosses the halfway line on a run which will undoubtedly stretch the opposition defence and pose them danger if unchecked.

Now in the Worcester half, the winger loses the ball to a perfectly timed challenge one yard in from the touchline.

The ball goes out for a throw-in. The Worcester player making the tackle ends up virtually on the touchline where the ball went out. As he turns to quickly get back into position he is slightly off balance. The Newport player appears to be walking towards him at a measured pace.

A collision occurs, but is anyone to blame, and why?

Did the Worcester player consciously decide that he was going to try and make contact with the opposing player? Having just executed a superb tackle at a critical stage of the game, why would he want to do that? At what point did he see the opponent that he was about to collide with? Does the video show the moment?

Was the Newport player walking knowingly into the Worcester player's path? Does the video show at what point he sees the opponent that he was about to collide with?

Or was it just a simple accident?

Honest, I'm glad it's not me making the call on this one!

Your chum, B-W

[Croc]

I heard this second hand so it may not be gospel, but one of the Doncaster Rovers directors, who is an ex-FL assistant, was asked about appeals. Apparently he said you have no chance unless the ref indicates he might have got it wrong. He also said you had more chance of having a red for Denying an Obvious Goalscoring Opportunity overturned than for Serious Foul Play or Violent Conduct.

So- the message to managers would be- ask the ref if he's sure about the red and if he says "I'll have a look at the tape" it might be worth an appeal. If he's adamant that it's a red- take it on the chin and don't risk the extra game.

[canalender]

The referee did not see the incident and the linesman did not flag at the time. It was only when Morgan lay dying that the referee and linesman got together, no doubt aided by dozens of county fans who missed the incident as well, and decided it was a sending off.

[Deleted]

I'd second what Croc says. Who says the referee did not see the incident? Only the referees report will say what he did, or didnt, see. If he believes that Serious Foul Play or Violent Conduct took place, then it will be tough to appeal, and failed appeals not only cost money, they usually end up with a bigger suspension.

[canalender]

Jan 6, 2010 11:53:43 GMT Down The Pan said:

I'd second what Croc says. Who says the referee did not see the incident? Only the referees report will say what he did, or didnt, see. If he believes that Serious Foul Play or Violent Conduct took place, then it will be tough to appeal, and failed appeals not only cost money, they usually end up with a bigger suspension.

He did not see it as he was looking in a different direction and he only reacted when seeing the player on the floor, whether the linesman saw it is debatable as he failed to raise his flag. Looking at the video Newports no. 8 certainly saw the incident, approached the linesman and can be seen applauding when Khan is being sent off.
The wording of their report should be interesting.

[b1ewin-white]

#19 - "The referee did not see the incident"
#21 - "He did not see it as he was looking in a different direction"

Canalender, where was the ref looking then?

[canalender]

Jan 6, 2010 14:04:01 GMT b1ewin-white said:

#19 - "The referee did not see the incident"
#21 - "He did not see it as he was looking in a different direction"

Canalender, where was the ref looking then?

He was looking towards where the ball went out of play, by the Newport dug out, thats why he went to consult his linesman.
The linesman himself did not flag, as indicated by the Newport no. 8.
Therefore niether official could be 100% sure that it was a sending off offence.
They were both influenced by the reaction of the Newport players and fans.

[b1ewin-white]

Can I just explain something.

This video evidence gives me the shivers.

Canalender, you are saying that the ref did not see the incident. I've looked again and you may be right.

But how do you know that he was looking only at the area by the dug out. How can you be so certain?

Looking at the video again, is it not possible that he had a clear view of the dug out and the incident together? Are they so far apart?

I'm not trying to prove anything here other than one thing: video evidence is surely such a subjective issue How on earth are the people that count going to find the time to come to the right conclusion when deciding whether or not to ban a player for 3 games, partly as a result of it?

Personally I hope that the player gets justice and gets the sending off decision overturned.

But when it comes to the wider issue, I can't help feeling that the submission of video evidence creates more questions than answers.

Hey ho, B-W

[Deleted]

Canalender, read between the lines. How do you know that the referee did not see the incident. His report is hardly going to read "I did not see what happened, so sent the player off!"

Anyway, when I'm sat in my office, my window wall is just 3 foot in front of me, yet I can see both the side walls, which are 6 foot away in both directions, we are blessed with peripheral vision, we can see things that our heads aren't aimed at. And I'm not even a referee, and we know how they see things that don't exist!!

Its a gamble the club are taking, it may pay off, I have my doubts.

[canalender]

If the referee did see it, he was slow at reacting to it and I cannot think why he would need to go over to the non-flagging linesman if he was sure of the offence that took place.
The officials can only issue a sanction if they saw the offence which clearly they didn't and they were influenced into making the desicion.
There is the distinct possibility of Shabir getting a three game ban over this offence..
It is hardly comparable with a two footed lunge but the punishment is the same.

[Deleted]

Yes but even if that is the case, will the referees report say that? Is the linesman going to confirm the referees findings? What do you think?

[jimbo]

Surely the answer to this thread is YES it was a sending off.
A red card was shown by the ref, end of story !
Had this happened to a Newport player no one on here would be debating the subject.
The ref's decision is final.

[niels]

Jan 6, 2010 20:19:43 GMT jimbo said:

Surely the answer to this thread is YES it was a sending off.
A red card was shown by the ref, end of story !
Had this happened to a Newport player no one on here would be debating the subject.
The ref's decision is final.

A) You are sounding like JCP!

B) The Newport fans are debating it on their message board, so why shouldn't we if it were the other way around. Some have even suggested that County should support us in the appeal.