Big clear out required

[alwaysnextyear]

The new manager will need to be a miracle worker to get anything out of many of the players who as John Barton said again today " weren't good enough ". His only chance will be be to ship plenty out and get new faces in, and he'll need plenty of contacts. The only snag with this plan is getting rid of some of the players, who I truly don't believe we could give away on their wages ! Who honestly would take them on their wages let alone pay anything for them ?
Out of the FA Cup, FA Trophy, and Setanta Cup, and 7 points from relegation all by the end of November is a sign of a dire team and more worringly, one with no heart and pride. It's going to be a grim winter at SGL.

[StopfordianWCFC]

alwaysnextyear said:

The new manager will need to be a miracle worker to get anything out of many of the players who as John Barton said again today " weren't good enough ". His only chance will be be to ship plenty out and get new faces in, and he'll need plenty of contacts. The only snag with this plan is getting rid of some of the players, who I truly don't believe we could give away on their wages ! Who honestly would take them on their wages let alone pay anything for them ?
Out of the FA Cup, FA Trophy, and Setanta Cup, and 7 points from relegation all by the end of November is a sign of a dire team and more worringly, one with no heart and pride. It's going to be a grim winter at SGL.

You are probably right. At least Barty has the opportunity to be very very honest about our position and the state of the sqaud - which has disintegrated rather alarmingly. Its been refreshing to hear someone we respect laying it on the line. I'm sure the board have taken note.

It could be worse, we could be 7 points from safety, rather than 7 points clear. But thats no excuse for complacency - one team always seems to freefall after a decent start (did we not do the same the year we were relegated from the Conference?). Lets just get the new man in and hope the board have some cash up their sleeves as we probably need a new player (or 4 ).

I fear for our future in CN with the current line up.

[dorothy]

Wish list!

Experienced centre half to play alongside smudger.
A midfield.
A 6'6" striker who works the area from penalty spot to goal line. I admire Craigs work rate but we need a physical prescence in front of goal. Troy's not there yet, Danksi needs to realise that there are other players in the team and Webby........

On the positive side, we seem OK in goal.

[StopfordianWCFC]

darrena said:

Wish list!

Experienced centre half to play alongside smudger.
A midfield.
A 6'6" striker who works the area from penalty spot to goal line. I admire Craigs work rate but we need a physical prescence in front of goal. Troy's not there yet, Danksi needs to realise that there are other players in the team and Webby........

On the positive side, we seem OK in goal.

Fully agree with "a midfield!" ;D rather than midfielder (singular)

[andy]

This time last year up to January was key, as I see it if I can invoke the benefit of hindsight. I know Webby was only just returning from injury, but we were lining up something like

McDonnell

Ward, Smith, Lyttle, Thompson, Burley

Warmer, Cornes, Clegg

Webster, Danks

With a bench of Wilding, Wood, Colley, Khan and Coates.

I'm sorry, but I thought that line-up was one midfielder short of success. Cornesy didnt do it for us (though I'm not blaming him), and nor did Shaun. That squad didnt push on, and with hindsight what was a very good squad is disintegrating (4 have gone) and I think any new manager will take a look at the midfield first and foremost. It was always the area that needed attention.

Two of that starting eleven played today.

I want a lucky manager, not Barty's misfortune of having to go into a game without Danny, Smith, Patrece, Webster and Danks.


The defence is young, but capable - Ward, Smith, Liburd, Clarke, Khan, Gill, Price and Burley.

Mike Wright looks to be providing decent cover for Danny, and is one for the future (though dare I say it, a certain type of manager might choose to opt for a senior player in midfield rather than between the sticks. OK, I'll go away and say 15 Hail Dannys.

We are not getting anything like enough out of a very decent strike force of Webby, Danks, Craig and Troy.

I dont like to be the first to say it, but I can see Nic Colley being moved aside, and possibly Clegg going - I'm not sure about Shaun Findlay. I would imagine that Macca will be retained, and maybe three midfielders coming in.

While I like Patrece very much as a player, I can see an older head being brought in in central defence, and if he is to go for real experience, that could see Shabs or Burlo going to free up the wage bill. Possibly also to tighten up the distances players travel, though Burlo is becoming a local soon, I believe.

If I were to put my neck on the block, I can see us in two months time lining up something like this

McDonnell

Clark Smith a-McAutrie-type Burley

New New Nwadike New

Danks Webster

Bench: Wilding, Wood, Ward, Price, Gill

Other squad members - Wright, Findlay

[ctod1959]

From the general tone of postings over the last seven days, it would appear that we have a squad made up, for the most part, of no hopers who need to be sent packing. Yet prior to the two Nuneaton games, the team had been putting in more good performances than bad (yes, the bad, at Alfreton & Hucknall, I admit, were terrible) and were positioned comfortably in 10th spot in a division which many supporters felt was fairly strong.

I can understand the calls for a 'root and branch' (sorry!) overhaul of the playing staff, and it will inevitably happen, but does anyone share my view that results would not have taken such a turn for the worse if AP had still been in charge?

[colinlayland]

I really feel sorry for the new manager, with the players he is taking on, a team of no hope-rs who would have a job to get into a Sunday morning pub team. And before some body comes on here to tell me the ifs and maybes of this load of has-beens, I would just like to say that I have been to every game this season, home and away, so I can give my views on the load of rubbish I have had to watch. I will not be wasting any more money going to away games until the new man has a good clear out and brings in players who can a least be seen to be trying, and if the new manager can not sort it out, I am sorry to say it, but apologies from the board will not be enough.

[sleepinggiant]

I can see Webby being cleared out too. He must be one of the highest wage earners and hasn't been giving us any value for money for a year now.

[aj]

ctod1959 you have a point in that the same players have put in excellent performances as well as poor ones but I don't fully agree with you. Barty's 6 results in all competitions have been DWLDLL and Preecey's last 6 wins were DLLDWL - same number of wins, losses and draws. I also think that we have shown some spirit even in our defeats under Barty, whereas those last 6 of Preecey's included Alfreton, Solihull and Hucknall, all games in which we showed no spirit at all (although we did get a point against Solihull but it was still awful). I have to agree with other posters who have said there is a lack of talent, but there is no doubt a lack of confidence as well as a lack of talent. I hope the new manager will be capable and experienced enough to bring out the confidence and imagination in those players we have who are good enough but aren't currently showing it. That seems to be where Preecey fell short (and maybe Barty too) and it's why we're looking for a higher calibre manager than we've had in recent years. Difficult job and maybe not a case of everyone out and a whole new squad in, but a long patient build-up over a season or two.

[andy]

I'm with you - mostly - but not wholly Clive - and I'l explain why later.

I tink Preecey had his run on an extended budget last year, on the back of the Cup run. And ultimately came up short. hence the Chairmans comments at the end of the year. I think it is clear to everyone that midfield is where new players are needed. I suspect that a budget request was turned down, and so leading to the parting of ways. I believe Preece could have a case if Findlays, Colleys and Burleys injuries were not revealed to him over the summer in full - otherwise the failure to strengthen midfield substantively looks inexplicable to me from any footballing perspective.

If you were to offer me - back after Hucknall - Andy Preece for another two years, I would have taken that. A young squad growing together, to be strengthened in key positions when finances permit.

Where I differ is in the implication that the results under the current management team have been poor - or a trun for the worse. But no luck whatsoever with injuries, and whatever formation changes have been tried hasnt brought a change in fortune.

I think this squad will dissolve at a rate much quicker than it otherwise would because of the management change. But I dont think it is root and branch. Four new faces - three in midfield and a centre-half - would not be much more than I would expect any new manager to make.

[ctod1959]

points well made, aj; when you analyse those last 12 games both the wins, Southport and Stalybridge, were somewhat fortuitous.

I also agree with sleepinggiant; webby has been one of my favourite players, but he needs to move on now (for his own good as well as for City's).

[ctod1959]

An accurate analysis, andy; although I do think there has been an acceleration of the down turn since AP's departure; this is not a criticism of JB/PS and PC - rather the inevitable consequence of player uncertainty and low morale.

[wh]

Big clear out! it ain't gonna happen, where is the money coming from?

[Deleted]

I guess it depends on the contracts, how many of our players contracts are up at the end of the season? Those who are will probably not be here next season. The other option is to put them up for transfer and let someone else take on their contract. Getting players in shouldn't be too difficult without money, if Hereford United can put together a side of free transfers, then so should we, then its just about balancing the wages.

[Deleted]

mancunianwcfc said:

alwaysnextyear said:

The new manager will need to be a miracle worker to get anything out of many of the players who as John Barton said again today " weren't good enough ". His only chance will be be to ship plenty out and get new faces in, and he'll need plenty of contacts. The only snag with this plan is getting rid of some of the players, who I truly don't believe we could give away on their wages ! Who honestly would take them on their wages let alone pay anything for them ?
Out of the FA Cup, FA Trophy, and Setanta Cup, and 7 points from relegation all by the end of November is a sign of a dire team and more worringly, one with no heart and pride. It's going to be a grim winter at SGL.

You are probably right. At least Barty has the opportunity to be very very honest about our position and the state of the sqaud - which has disintegrated rather alarmingly. Its been refreshing to hear someone we respect laying it on the line. I'm sure the board have taken note.

It could be worse, we could be 7 points from safety, rather than 7 points clear. But thats no excuse for complacency - one team always seems to freefall after a decent start (did we not do the same the year we were relegated from the Conference?). Lets just get the new man in and hope the board have some cash up their sleeves as we probably need a new player (or 4 ).

I fear for our future in CN with the current line up.

Yes its good to hear a totally unbiased opinion on the quality of our players, from someone with a lot of knowledge of the game at this level, and that opinion is that they are not good enough. If JB says that, then I'll take that as fact. I think it was inevitable that results would continue to slide after Preeceys sacking as some players are now looking at a 2 hour drive to training or a home game, in a poor squad, to a place they may never have even visited prior to signing, and are thinking "why am I doing this?"
I still think JB would steady the ship enough to keep us safe in the league, but it sounds like new manager is even more iminent than news on the ground move, so will a new manager just steady the ship with what he's inherited until the end of the season? Or will he risk wholesale midseason changes?

[Deleted]

andy said:

This time last year up to January was key, as I see it if I can invoke the benefit of hindsight. I know Webby was only just returning from injury, but we were lining up something like

McDonnell

Ward, Smith, Lyttle, Thompson, Burley

Warmer, Cornes, Clegg

Webster, Danks

With a bench of Wilding, Wood, Colley, Khan and Coates.

I'm sorry, but I thought that line-up was one midfielder short of success. Cornesy didnt do it for us (though I'm not blaming him), and nor did Shaun. That squad didnt push on, and with hindsight what was a very good squad is disintegrating (4 have gone) and I think any new manager will take a look at the midfield first and foremost. It was always the area that needed attention.

Two of that starting eleven played today.

I want a lucky manager, not Barty's misfortune of having to go into a game without Danny, Smith, Patrece, Webster and Danks.


The defence is young, but capable - Ward, Smith, Liburd, Clarke, Khan, Gill, Price and Burley.

Mike Wright looks to be providing decent cover for Danny, and is one for the future (though dare I say it, a certain type of manager might choose to opt for a senior player in midfield rather than between the sticks. OK, I'll go away and say 15 Hail Dannys.

We are not getting anything like enough out of a very decent strike force of Webby, Danks, Craig and Troy.

I dont like to be the first to say it, but I can see Nic Colley being moved aside, and possibly Clegg going - I'm not sure about Shaun Findlay. I would imagine that Macca will be retained, and maybe three midfielders coming in.

While I like Patrece very much as a player, I can see an older head being brought in in central defence, and if he is to go for real experience, that could see Shabs or Burlo going to free up the wage bill. Possibly also to tighten up the distances players travel, though Burlo is becoming a local soon, I believe.

If I were to put my neck on the block, I can see us in two months time lining up something like this

McDonnell

Clark Smith a-McAutrie-type Burley

New New Nwadike New

Danks Webster

Bench: Wilding, Wood, Ward, Price, Gill

Other squad members - Wright, Findlay

Blimey Andy we almost look in full agreement on this one Except that I take the Jack Nicklaus view that "the harder I work the luckier I get" So a smart working manager will do for me, and yes he'll hopefully get the odd lucky strike too. Although surely Preecey was lucky, no other manager I can rememeber had the type of bonanza he did with the BBC televised Huddersfield game?

I'd add Webster to that list of departures, he adds very little to the team now, and doesn't look like he'll really improve as a player anymore.

Definitely a JT replacement in an old head in the middle of defence, and definitely a complete new midfield.

[colinlayland]

wh said:

Big clear out! it ain't gonna happen, where is the money coming from?

They are called Directors,and yes I know there pockets are not bottom less but if you take on the job you must expect to spend your own money,and yes I am more then happy to help out,but I would require the equivalent amount of money I give in shares up to the maximum.

[StopfordianWCFC]

For my own tuppeny view, I'm not sure it is quite as bad as is painted, although it is pretty bad to watch at the moment.

The real problem with the team is the midfield. It barely exists as a unit and the simple fact is, without a decent middle 3 / 4 / 5 you have no chance of winning many games. Over the past 3 months its become more and more apparent that:

Ward is not a midfielder
Colley does not make a big enough impact - he is nether a winger, creative genius or ball winner.
Macca - is an enigma. Often coasts through matches doing his own thing. In flashes (usually when riled) he shows genuine talent. Probably needs a new manager's boot up his ar$e
Cleggy - could be a genius as the ball player when supported by 3 other 'water carriers'. In this midfield he is lost and his talents wasted.

And then, putting it simply, there are no other midfielders in the squad (Shaun Findley excepting, but he is crocked and still pretty raw and does Burley now count as a midfielder?). In reality at least 3 of these guys will probably be shipped out at the end of the season, if not sooner, and new blood will need to come in. I have doubts whether, without reinforcements, they have the tools to keep us in CN / CS.

Elsewhere, I don't think the defence is actually that bad. Yes we could do with a JT replacement, but with proper midfield cover, we should be fine until the end of the season.

Up front again we are not too bad. It does pain me to say this, as I am a big Webby fan, but it does seems that his legs are just not going to recover from the injury. He is at least a yard off the pace and is not improving.

Wilding is a good player (but not a finisher unfortunately) he needs a goal bagger to play up with (should be Danksy?). Again we probably have enough to survive the end of the season and then its all up for grabs.

Until we have another 25 points, I don't think we can do anything but watch our backs. I reckon its going to be a high points scoring relegation zone this year as there are no stand out awful teams. Just an awful lot of mediocrity.

[wh]

I dont regard slating the players very publicly as steadying the ship. I fail to see what good that will achieve and I dont think Barty should have done it.

[ctod1959]

JB has always been candid in his assessment of his players. It's up to individuals now to prove him wrong - it's probably just such a reaction he's looking for.

[B*ue dragonstander]

It was interesting to see Andy's analysis of th eline up change between yesterday and last January. Therein lies part of the reason for inconsistent form.

Anyone having a go a JB and the stand in's please leave now. Every league point gained under the three amigos is a bonus.

Interestingly City have gone out of the Trophy to lower graded oposition 3 times in 10 seasons. Barty was in charge the last time at Hednesford - a result that foretold his sacking - and the previous debacle was against Mangotsfield on 6 Nov 2001. anyone guess who the manager was? Yes OK it was JB and our goalscorer that day? One Phil Stant!. Moral of the story...

Andy - I am most encouraged by the football dynasty that will lift City to hitherto unclimbed heights. The New triplets in midfield will be a headcahe for any team and more particularly the referee. Well done Mrs New you have solved our problems at a grunt !

[alwaysnextyear]

Having started off this lively debate, we all know unless players are shipped out to free up the cash, we're stuck with what we've got ! A manager with good preferably West Midlands, contacts is required. The players I'd try to get rid of ? My four to the board are :

Webster - given good service but no longer up to it
Burley - never was up to it, a truly dreadful signing ( signing Price as another left back appears to confirm that view plus we have Khan who to my eyes is far better anyway )
Ward - no better than what we had
Colley - runs around but little else

The only problem ? Who else would pay a fee for any of them plus match their wages ?

[Deleted]

We don't have to accept a fee for them, free transfers.

[wh]

interestingly Jamie Price regards himself as a central midfielder/winger who plays at left back if asked to.
I would love to see him given a start in the centre of the park alongside Macca.

[Deleted]

Nwadike is something of a Curates Egg.

[mazeythe2nd]

i would keep, danks (never passes but has a good finishing ability most the time), troy, wwilding, nwadike, colley,mcdonnell,smith thats it. We have really missed thompson this year i feel.

[dorothy]

Add Price and Wright to that list but lose Macca and unfortunately Nic (based on recent performances).

I agree that we have missed JT badly this season.

[wh]

If there is to be a clear out then as stated on here the player transfer kitty is a little empty so the club would be interested in any new ideas, or initiatives for funding or fund raising. The fans forum would be an ideal place to discuss such ideas.

[Deleted]

Here's an idea - look for free agents, find players released from league clubs, around this time there will be players released from academies at league clubs.
Another idea, someone pick up the phone to Graham Turner 01432 276666, and find out how to build teams without paying a transfer fee, 10 seasons without paying out a penny for a player! He built his Conference winning side on free transfers! Surely to goodness, a man having success in a backwater like Hereford, just 26 miles away, is worth the price of a phone call??

[alwaysnextyear]

Brooksider is correct.Graham Turner has built teams on a shoestring in far worse financial situations than the City have ever been in, with an emphasis on nurturing unproven youthful potential. Credit where credit is due, his record has been remarkable. City have tended to sign players who had a good game against us !
As for freeing up players with free transfers let alone fees, which clubs would match their SGL wages ?