|
Post by beenwatching on Aug 8, 2017 19:44:02 GMT
This is an "incidental lottery" and in my opinion would not require any form of registration, although there are certain rules to follow.
|
|
|
Post by beenwatching on Aug 8, 2017 19:46:13 GMT
Correct .... it's pretty basic stuff though, even Sunday league teams have them ....
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 8, 2017 19:53:46 GMT
Sunday League teams aren't Limited companies
|
|
|
Post by creaner on Aug 8, 2017 20:18:49 GMT
And the gamblin' commissioner's hangin' on by the skin of his teeth
|
|
|
Post by jupu on Aug 8, 2017 20:39:54 GMT
Incidental lotteries still have to be non commercial though jupu. If a lottery is raising money for private or commercial gain then it is not lawful - the Gambling Commission website is clear on this. Plenty of ways to raise funds for the club, but we very careful about running a lottery to benefit a Ltd company. The fines and prison sentences the courts can hand out are very real. In what way is this activity for commercial gain?
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 8, 2017 21:50:09 GMT
50% of the money generated is being retained by the Ltd. company as revenue. That is commercial gain. A Ltd. company cannot make profit from gambling activities. I'm afraid raising funds to purchase items for the company to carry out its business is not "good cause" it is commercial gain. In 2007 a woman who tried to raffle her home was prosecuted for breaking the lottery laws, had to pay compensation and was made the subject of a 12-month conditional discharge, even though the judge accepted that there was no element of dishonesty. It merely fell foul of the Gambling Act 2005. This publication from Pinsent Mason lays out the legality of lotteries very clearly. If the lottery provided funds which were for a charity or good cause, it could be classed as an Incidental non-commercial lottery. www.out-law.com/page-6780
|
|
|
Post by voiceoftreason on Aug 9, 2017 5:09:49 GMT
jupu - what he said!
The way I have read The Verner's plans, the revenue raised from the proposed lottery is to be given to a commercial enterprise (WCFC Ltd) to support it in meeting its operating costs.
That looks like a lottery for commercial gain to me.
Care is required when organising any lottery, and this one could well be unlawful.
|
|
|
Post by jimbo on Aug 9, 2017 8:48:18 GMT
Surely as an employer (albeit with self employed players) the club has a legal obligation to ensure the safety & well being of it's workforce. This board appears to be raping our finances, so why not force them to pay for operating costs. If the circumstances were different Verner, I would applaud your efforts to raise funds. But now (in my opinion), is not something we should be doing. I sincerely hope that this sort of thing will not distant yourself from fellow supporters who are vehemently attempting to force some changes to the way our club is being ruined.
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 9, 2017 9:18:21 GMT
And the gamblin' commissioner's hangin' on by the skin of his teeth Everything dies baby thats a fact Maybe everything that dies, someday comes back
|
|
|
Post by The Verner on Aug 9, 2017 9:49:07 GMT
Surely as an employer (albeit with self employed players) the club has a legal obligation to ensure the safety & well being of it's workforce. This board appears to be raping our finances, so why not force them to pay for operating costs. If the circumstances were different Verner, I would applaud your efforts to raise funds. But now (in my opinion), is not something we should be doing. I sincerely hope that this sort of thing will not distant yourself from fellow supporters who are vehemently attempting to force some changes to the way our club is being ruined. Hopefully not Jimbo, but I am not ready to give up on the Club until death comes, just like I wouldnt give up on my pet that was dying. If this pet ends up dying then like others I would move onto my next pet...but safe in my mind I did all I could to keep the little bugger alive for as long as possible. I await someone coming in with a "why not put it down" comment. If people want to question me for trying my best to raise money to keep the Club alive then so be it. What choice is there ? Wait for Perdiswell to get a further delay, wait for Parsonage Way to get a light of any sort, meanwhile WCFC is left to die.
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 9, 2017 10:47:55 GMT
That's fair enough, although personally I think it's pretty cruel keeping a dying pet alive and allowing it to suffer. By all means raise funds to keep the club on life support, but do it in a way that is lawful, and do it in a way that doesn't leave the club open to the kinds of fines that would cripple it. The last thing the club needs is a legal case and associated costs. Here's an idea, why don't you ask fans to donate any unused medical supplies to the club? I've got a fair few unwrapped bandages, plasters, foil blankets, and unopened eyewash from my years on the bag at Wychbold.
|
|
|
Post by The Verner on Aug 9, 2017 10:58:57 GMT
That's fair enough, although personally I think it's pretty cruel keeping a dying pet alive and allowing it to suffer. By all means raise funds to keep the club on life support, but do it in a way that is lawful, and do it in a way that doesn't leave the club open to the kinds of fines that would cripple it. The last thing the club needs is a legal case and associated costs. Here's an idea, why don't you ask fans to donate any unused medical supplies to the club? I've got a fair few unwrapped bandages, plasters, foil blankets, and unopened eyewash from my years on the bag at Wychbold. Knew you would be the one for the pet comment. You know what I mean !
|
|
oxford
First Teamer
Posts: 406
|
Post by oxford on Aug 9, 2017 11:46:17 GMT
I am not going to criticise Verner for desperately trying to save the club he loves any more than I criticise Tim,or indeed some of my best friends,for continuing to throw money at the regime currently in place.I think they are mistaken in doing so but that's my opinion. They think differently. That's the way of the world. What I do find extremely strange though is that we find a guy having to,rightly or wrongly,try to raise funds to keep the dressing room supplied on the same day that the Vice Chairman tells us that he is happy with the financial situation!Anyone else think that something doesn't seem to quite add up here?
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 9, 2017 12:35:31 GMT
That's fair enough, although personally I think it's pretty cruel keeping a dying pet alive and allowing it to suffer. By all means raise funds to keep the club on life support, but do it in a way that is lawful, and do it in a way that doesn't leave the club open to the kinds of fines that would cripple it. The last thing the club needs is a legal case and associated costs. Here's an idea, why don't you ask fans to donate any unused medical supplies to the club? I've got a fair few unwrapped bandages, plasters, foil blankets, and unopened eyewash from my years on the bag at Wychbold. Knew you would be the one for the pet comment. You know what I mean ! Yes I know what you mean, but in all walks of life there is a tipping point, and I'm yet to talk to anyone with far more knowledge and experience in the matter who doesn't believe that the company is over the tipping point. This is a business, and businesses don't succeed on emotions. I read an article by a non-league chairman some time ago, it may have been Slough Town, who have had troubles like ourselves, saying how the moment you let your heart make decisions for a football club, you're in trouble. Putting money into WCFC Ltd. Is like backing a three legged greyhound, because he's got a pretty face. And it's always the fans who have to stump up the cash. How about Pinches increasing the amount of their sponsorship? It's been the same for years. What happened to the initiative for the Directors to raise £10,000 themselves? Maybe one of them will put their hand in their pocket and buy medical supplies? I'll start the ball rolling, I can buy a very well equipped first aid bag from eBay for £15 which would surely last a month or even two. If Hereford fans had kept raising money to keep their club afloat, they'd probably still have Tommy Agombar involved.
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 9, 2017 12:41:36 GMT
I am not going to criticise Verner for desperately trying to save the club he loves any more than I criticise Tim,or indeed some of my best friends,for continuing to throw money at the regime currently in place.I think they are mistaken in doing so but that's my opinion. They think differently. That's the way of the world. What I do find extremely strange though is that we find a guy having to,rightly or wrongly,try to raise funds to keep the dressing room supplied on the same day that the Vice Chairman tells us that he is happy with the financial situation!Anyone else think that something doesn't seem to quite add up here? Colin Layland hasn't got a clue about the financial position of the club. He's kept in the dark like the other Directors, and certainly never asks questions about the finances. It's ironic how Mike Layland is quite rightly hailed as Mr Worcester, yet Colin Layland is one of the men who has destroyed the City's football club. What kind of buffoon comes up with a statement like "No way is the club going to fold......but I can't guarantee it!!" On the question of medical supplies, I assume that the physiology has gone to the Board and said "I need more supplies for the dressing room" I assume from Kevs actions that the Board have said "No" That in iirself is pretty scandalous
|
|
|
Post by voiceoftreason on Aug 9, 2017 18:20:52 GMT
I won't personally put any more money into WCFC Ltd until I am satisfied that the Directors of that company are not just bleeding it dry and actually have a concrete plan in place to deliver a new home ground in Worcester.
I can understand The Verners desire to keep the club going and I won't criticise that - ultimately we all have to decide for ourselves what we think the right thing to do is.
I myself have been torn and still am to some extent, but having evaluated the available evidence, my view currently is that WCFC Ltd is past the point of no return and to chuck more money at a failing company is folly - and I say that as a shareholder of said company!!
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 9, 2017 18:30:52 GMT
Kev - put a list up of what is needed from a physio perspective. I can't believe that over £500 worth of additional items are needed for the season, but if you put up a list, it would help, and people could donate what they've got. I don't know whether SUV still frequents here, but he might be able to get hold of supplies, cheap or even FOC, or know a company who would be happy to help out.
|
|
|
Post by Noboddy aka Lord Ealing on Aug 9, 2017 18:48:43 GMT
I've heard it said that life is a lottery. Does that make living illegal?
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 9, 2017 18:54:29 GMT
I won't personally put any more money into WCFC Ltd until I am satisfied that the Directors of that company are not just bleeding it dry and actually have a concrete plan in place to deliver a new home ground in Worcester. I can understand The Verners desire to keep the club going and I won't criticise that - ultimately we all have to decide for ourselves what we think the right thing to do is. I myself have been torn and still am to some extent, but having evaluated the available evidence, my view currently is that WCFC Ltd is past the point of no return and to chuck more money at a failing company is folly - and I say that as a shareholder of said company!! Maybe, when you say you're making decisions on behalf of shareholders, like dropping two leagues after relegation, it would be a good idea to advise shareholders firstly what you are doing, and secondly, what the plans are moving forward? Shareholders aren't being considered, they are being kept completely in the dark. I for one would appreciate it if Coling Layland had the balls to stand up in front of shareholders and lay out the plans for the future. Carls business plan looks completely discredited now, and what about Hampsons plan to raise revenue through share purchase? What is going on with Parsonage Way? It seems that the press know more about this than shareholders, and Hampson wants the Trust to get behind it, get behind what ?
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 9, 2017 18:55:38 GMT
I've heard it said that life is a lottery. Does that make living illegal? Only if it is for commercial gain. Me? I'm just trying to get out of it alive!!
|
|
|
Post by jupu on Aug 9, 2017 20:47:14 GMT
To try and clarify some earlier points, under this piece of legislation, non-commercial includes enabling participation in, or supporting, sport, athletics or a cultural activity. I believe the proposed activity falls within that definition.
|
|
dragon
First Teamer
Posts: 355
|
Post by dragon on Aug 10, 2017 20:30:46 GMT
Bloody hell ! No wonder WCFC has effectively gone bust. With fans like these ,they may as well pull the blinds down now !
|
|
|
Post by Noboddy aka Lord Ealing on Aug 10, 2017 22:10:44 GMT
So it's the fans' fault? Did we sell SGL? Did we waste the money? Have we done nothing to secure a new stadium?
|
|
dragon
First Teamer
Posts: 355
|
Post by dragon on Aug 11, 2017 9:30:56 GMT
Nobody, I meant `fans like these`(on here) who can`t even agree on a raffle. How the devil they could ever come together to raise enough money to build a ground, gawd only knows. It`s always been so - and I was a protagonist in the long distant past. There`s just no hope !
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 11, 2017 11:08:51 GMT
I actually think that its quite positive that we, as fans, can have this kind of discussion. A fan comes up with the idea of a raffle, because the Board of Directors won't fund essential medical supplies - and it's a big thanks to Kev Preece for highlighting this rather crazy, and very unprofessional situation. The question is, is what is being proposed a lawful way of raising money. If its not, and the outcome is that either Kev Preece, or Directors of the club find themselves facing thousands of pounds in legal costs and fines for running an unlawful lottery (albeit unknowingly), then surely having this discussion is a good thing?
My view is that there are alternative ways to provide essential medical supplies for the club
1. The Board of Directors meet their duty of care to the staff, and fund the purchases 2. The medical supplies are offered up as a sponsorship package - at £500 ( the equivalent of 25 lotteries at games raising £20 a time) 3. Fans donate medical supplies - most of us have unopened sterile bandages, plasters, slings etc. that we could donate
There must be a list of things that the physio needs, but so far, no-one has posted it on here. I've said I'd commit to purchasing some of this, and providing the kit that I've already got, but so far, no response.
|
|
|
Post by The Verner on Aug 11, 2017 12:26:36 GMT
Nobody has posted it on here because as usual a good idea gets turned on its head.
Ive not stated the Club wouldnt pay for it....youve put those words in my mouth.
I wouldnt dream of mentioning sponsorships on here because another negative response will no doubt follow.
Theres little point trying to do anything positive at this Club when people continually work against others.
Now to end this thread, youve told me to check it out, i am doing so and am confident that we will be fine.
|
|
|
Post by Brooksiders Return!! on Aug 11, 2017 12:34:12 GMT
So why not put a list up of whats needed?
|
|
|
Post by glevumblues on Aug 11, 2017 16:25:58 GMT
Is this the house in Poland?
|
|
|
Post by genghis on Aug 11, 2017 17:51:17 GMT
Is this the house in Poland? You tell me, funny boy. I came in here to commend someone for actually doing something for the lads, but then I seen that Team Snape already got their stink all over this thread and tried to derail it. Absolutely shameful.
|
|
|
Post by zeke on Aug 11, 2017 18:13:07 GMT
No! You came here to have another dig at someone no one cares about!
|
|